Procès-verbal of an interview between Monsieur Bismarck and the ministers Tung and Chêng, at the Tsung-li-Yamên, on the 2d of March, 1873., March 4, 1873

Procès-verbal of an interview between Monsieur Bismarck and the ministers Tung and Chêng, at the Tsung-li-Yamên, on the 2d of March, 1873.

In pursuance of my instructions, I went on Sunday, the 2d March, at 2 o’clock, to the Tsung-li-Yamên, preceded by the ting chais of the five legations, each one furnished with the card of his respective minister.

The Chinese ministers had been informed at 10 a.m. that I should come to speak to them on important business, but on arriving I found the Minister Tung only. He expressed astonishment at the cards of all the representatives, and I hastened to explain to him that I came as general interpreter for the five foreign ministers, and that my mission related to the identic dispatch which had been sent to the legations on the previous day.

I then inquired whether I might hope to see some of his colleagues, and he said that one or the other would probably be there shortly.

He then complained of the great amount of business with which the mandarins in his position were overwhelmed since the accession of the Emperor, business which occupied them continuously, beginning at 3 or 4½in the morning and lasting till evening, to say nothing of the great responsibility which weighed upon them.

During this the Minister Chêng Lin had come in, and I began to execute my commission. In the name of the five foreign representatives, I expressed the regret they felt at the illness of the Minister Wên, and their hope that it would not last long.

The Minister Tung, interrupting me, said, “I fear you do not feel convinced of the illness of the Minister Wên, but I assure you that he is really very unwell.”

M. Bismarck. Considering the bad health of his excellency there is no reason to doubt that he is actually ill, but it is most unfortunate that this illness should coincide with a time when there is so much to negotiate between the Tsung-li-Yamên and the foreign ministers.

Minister Chêng. His Excellency Wên felt this acutely. You will believe in his illness when I tell you that he did not himself apply for leave, but that, on the occasion of an audience on the day before yesterday, His Majesty had been so struck with the unusual and sickly appearance of the minister that His Majesty took the initiative in inviting him to retire from business for a few days.

M. Bismarck. And you think his excellency will soon be well again?

Minister Tung. How can one know? I think, however, that four or five days will suffice to put him straight again.

M. Bismarck. If the illness was to be prolonged there would be nothing for the foreign ministers to do but to ask to see the prince, since the decision on the important matter in question could not be suspended on account of the illness of one of the ministers of the Tsung-li-Yamên when the duration of the illness is uncertain.

Minister Tung. We will inform Prince Kung to-morrow morning of what you have said to us, and we will at the same time let you know the state of health of Minister Wên. I am sure he will be well in a few days.

Minister Chêng. It is the weight of business which is the cause of the illness. His Excellency Pao is also very unwell, but he does not dare to ask for leave at present.

M. Bismarck. I wish to repeat that it is desirable that the matter in hand should be settled without too much delay, as the accession of His Majesty had always been pointed out by the Tsung-li-Yamên as the proper time to settle the audience question.

Minister Chêng. Certainly it ought to be settled, and it shall be settled. Remember how we announced without delay the accession of the Emperor. What remains to be done shall be done.

M. Bismarck. You will best prove your good will by informing His Majesty as quickly as possible of the desire of the foreign ministers. The illness of Minister Wên is not a sufficient reason to stop such a step being taken.

Minister Tung. The Minister Wên is absolutely necessary to us in these negotiations. If it was I who was ill it would be a different matter.

Minister Cheng. As for me, I was ill for a whole year, and the business of the Tsung-li-Yamên went on very well without me; I am not an important person.

M. Bismarck. But there is the prince.

The ministers rise and request me to be seated at the table where refreshments have been served; they endeavor by every means to get me off my subject by talking of the difference between European and Chinese food, &c., &c.

After a little while I asked, in order to return to the question, if the transaction of business was not easier since the accession of His Majesty.

Minister Tung. Reports are now made direct to His Majesty; before they were addressed to the two empresses who were hidden by a curtain. This system had great advantages; whereas, now the Emperor has to be spoken to direct, which makes the duty of reporting very unpleasant. The feeling of responsibility in the presence of His Majesty is so great that while doing one’s best to be correct in every detail one is in danger of overlooking important affairs.

Minister Chêng. To be questioned by His Majesty in person produces a singular sensation. The most simple questions, to which one would usually reply without hesitation, become actual problems when asked by His Majesty. (The minister cites instances in which he himself had not been able to answer promptly questions put to him concerning his name and his age.)

M. Bismarck. That may be, but if you have important business to communicate to His Majesty, and you fear you might make mistakes in an oral report, you have the good alternative of presenting a written report to the Throne, in which you can treat the subject at length and with precision, after mature reflection beforehand.

Minister Chêng. But if afterward His Majesty wishes to have a verbal commentary on the report, we find ourselves in the same difficulty; we are weighted with a sense of enormous responsibility.

M. Bismarck. The step now taken by the foreign representatives ought not, however, to cause such great difficulty, for you have had so many years to prepare the solution; and, besides, what responsibility can fall upon you, seeing that it is the foreign ministers who have taken the step, or rather governments, which ask for the reception of their envoys, not only as an act of propriety and politeness in use throughout the civilized world, but also as a necessity required by the dignity of these governments. Were, not the Chinese envoys received at foreign courts?

Minister Tung. Certainly, but in that our envoys accommodated themselves to the usages of your countries, whereas in China such a matter requires before all minute consideration as to the best way in which to bring it forward. For my part, I should certainly prefer to be named envoy in a distant country and to conform to the foreign manners to supporting as a minister of the Tsung-li-Yamên the demands of the foreign representatives.

(The Minister Chêng agrees.)

M. Bismarck. What steps have you taken concerning the collective note of the ministers of the 24th of February?

Minister Tung. We shall submit the contents of the note in the form of a report to His Majesty.

M. Bismarck. Does that mean that as yet such a report has not been made? The foreign ministers supposed that your report had been made to the Throne without the slightest delay.

Minister Chêng, (exchanging a smile with his colleague.) What an idea! We cannot surprise His Majesty all of a sudden by a request for the audience while he is still unaware of the grounds on which such a request is put forward. His Majesty is not twenty years of age, and, notwithstanding his eminent position, one cannot expect him to be familiar with all questions that arise. Before inviting the Emperor to give his decision on the question of audience it is, therefore, our duty to determine the manner in which it will be most expedient to prepare His Majesty.

M. Bismarck. And how long would it take you to arrange this and to ask for the decision of His Majesty?

Minister Tung. Indeed; I am unable to say.

M. Bismarck. But that is a question to which you can very well reply without engaging yourself to anything.

Minister Tung. We dare not give our opinion on it; but be assured that the affair shall not be delayed.

Minister Chêng. A conference with the foreign ministers forms a part of the preliminaries.

M. Bismarck. I do not understand what you should have to communicate to the foreign ministers, unless it is to inform them before anything else that His Majesty has taken cognizance of the collective note of the 24th of February. What other object could a conference have?

Minister Chêng. On the day of the interview we shall receive further instructions on this point.

M. Bismarck. In your, letter of yesterday you said that you were on the point of going to the legations; therefore, you knew the object of your negotiation.

Minister Chêng. No; up to this moment we are still ignorant of the details; we shall only know them at the last moment, when the prince gives us our instructions.

M. Bismarck. All that appears to me to point again to useless delays.

Minister Chêng. Be re-assured; we are well aware of the impatience with which the foreign ministers regard the solution of this affair.

M. Bismarck. Not only that, but the envoys are all resolved upon success; in addition, the most complete understanding exists between them on the matter, and the Chinese government, although it has to deal with five representatives, has nevertheless to deal with only one opinion.

Minister Chêng. It is a very good system to hang closely together; we do it also when we have difficult and important business to settle.

M. Bismarck. Well, what answer am I to take to the envoys regarding this proposed conference?

Minister Tung. We have already said to you that at a very early hour to-morrow we will inform the prince, and we will find out at the same time about the health of his excellency Wên.

M. Bismarck. Then we may expect to hear from you, say, the day after to-morrow?

The two Ministers, (after consulting together in a low tone.) We promise this.

M. Bismarck. Above all, I will beg of you not to forget the importance and urgency of the matter, and that, were the ministers not to receive in a short time a satisfactory answer, nothing would be left for them to do but to ask for an audience of the prince.

The ministers repeated their assurances, and I took my leave. The interview had lasted one hour and a half.